Joe Filisko is a slender, blond, 28-year old machinist and harmonica wizard who lives in Joliet, IL and enjoys a growing reputation as a master craftsman of custom harmonicas. In my search for some background information on Filisko I obtained a wonderful assist from the excellent Winslow Yerxa, editor of the Harmonica Information Press. Thank you Winslow!

    "Joe went to technical school, became a machinist, and bought a one-man business (Ravco, Inc.) Straight out of school. He was attracted to the sort of renegade (his word) aspect of the harmonica - there are no rules - and started not only to play it, but to seek out the masters of technique and tinker with the instrument itself. He found masters like Howard Levy, with whom he works closely, as well as traditional masters like Lonnie Glosson, Gwen Foster, and DeFord Bailey -- all of whom were pre-war southern players whose considerable artistic achievements had never been understood by the harmonica community, and whose techniques contained amazing possibilities that had likewise been overlooked. The prewar diatonic is something he really studied closely. Joe can make a harmonica play and sound like most players insist that it should, even though they have never in their lives owned such an instrument. The longing for that instrument, once thought mythical, is something that he and I refer to as 'harmonica lust.'

    "Joe continues to refine, evolve, and innovate in the design, construction, and adjustment of the diatonic harmonica, proving that inside this mass-produced little instrument lies a huge potential that can be unlocked by a master like him. At the same time, he continues with a subversive program of performing for the most antediluvian and hidebound members of the harmonica community using the most radical new techniques on an instrument they have always despised, and making them love it. And he's teaching a whole new crop of players in Chicago things that surround the so-called Chicago sound from all angles - old techniques, new techniques, and solid musicianship and taste."

    Joe continues his work with Howard Levy, Charlie Musselwhite, Gary Primich, Corky Segal, and Kim Wilson - to name a few. A great weekend chock full of wonderful harp players at the Buckeye Harmonica Festival in Columbus, OH, this spring brought the opportunity to hear Filisko give some very informative seminars on the nature and playing of harmonica. He played a solo concert and was a welcome addition to some great late-night bull sessions and jams. I grabbed him right out of the hallway (playing harp while he walked!) one day and sat him down to get his take on some questions I had.

 CATHI: I want you to tell me a little bit about - I know you teach harmonica; you have theories about it; but you build harmonicas that everyone likes. That seems to be the thing I hear about you first. You seem to be very involved with the theory of what actually happens when you play harp. . . not "here's where the notes are placed." And in your seminar you were talking about relaxation techniques and how the sound comes out. Tone...you were going after tone. 

JOE: Well, the harmonica - they call it the "blind man's instrument" - they call it that simply because there's no visuals involved. This is something that, often people play and don't realize themselves: there is nothing to see when you play the harmonica. There is nothing as far as what the player is doing. And there is also nothing to touch. When you play guitar, think about how much of it is hand-eye coordination. You memorize the "fee" through your fingertips, and visually what bar chords look like. And it's sort of like this shape. You have this little shape in your head of what an open "C" chord looks like.

CATHI: A pattern. 

JOE: Yes, but on harmonica you have none of that. There is nothing involved with you fingertips. There's nothing involved with doing and seeing with your eyes - no visual cues to anything you're doing. On the harmonica you have no visual cue, you can get lost in a distance of about this much (indicates with fingertips slightly apart). In one inch you can get lost. And it's just such an interesting thing how that makes harmonica difficult - the lack of hand-eye coordination.

 CATHI: But don't you get a visual pattern in your head of what's happening anyway?  Imaginary?

 JOE: Well eventually you do. You listen to somebody talk, like Howard Levy, and he says that he can visualize the keyboard in his head, or in other words, he visualizes one guitar string - the chromatic scale laid out on a guitar string. And because I play guitar and have somewhat of a command of music I found that I could translate a lot of guitar ideas to the harmonica. When I found the blues potential of the harmonica, I found out the real power it has; it overwhelmed me. I sort of became intoxicated with the whole thing. Take for example: you can find people humming country or folk melodies, but you don't really find people singing, humming, whistling blues melodies. And there's a reason for that in that blues melodies are largely based upon improvisation - much more abstract. That's always been one of my big questions: how do you teach that? How do you teach improvisation?

    The thing about blues is that often you are floating from one chord tone to another. But you're playing those blues notes, which are usually a half-step below the chord tone. So if you're playing a "C" major chord, you're singing in G flat - that kind of blues notes; that flat fifth - that's a really powerful note. It really draws people's attention. But to teach people to instinctively know how to use that to create tension, relieve tension, and make it nice - that's something else. Because that's the improvisational part of it. I think how you work those notes to move people and to stir people up, and then of course to resolve it; that's one of the really beautiful parts of blues and improvisation.

CATHI: Well I don't come from the theory end. I come from the end of "how does it feel?" How does it affect? How does it land? How do you control it; how do you move it? And then I come in the back door to theory. Where I've met people here and elsewhere, that start from the theory and go from there - finding themselves suddenly in "moving” and "affect.” And then suddenly after years of playing they're worrying about "tone!”

 JOE: Well the really interesting thing about music theory, as far as I see it, is that music theory is just a tool to teach people to do what you're already doing.

CATHI: (Laughter) Oh God!

JOE: Really!

CATHI: Well, I take a lot of grief because I don't know it!

JOE: Well, it's a tool…but see this is where the ego comes in. It's like "I know music theory…” (laughs). "You can't read music…you're not a musician.” Well what's the point? The point is to make music! And who cares what your tools are if what you do sounds good? Then who cares?

    You know, you've got to really think about the consequences of these words, because when you start to say if you can't read notes, you're nothing, you're saying in the same breath that these guys that invented this music are void; that that doesn't really count - that's no good. And so there's a lot to consider.

CATHI: Do you think learning musical theory makes playing stiffer?

 JOE: Welllllll, I think that you always gotta keep your focus on what the end result is. I can say with a lot of confidence that if it wasn't for musical theory I wouldn't be as accomplished as I am - assuming anybody thinks I am accomplished (laughs). I learned a lot by doing musical theory; because it kind of points me - probably the best way to look at it is this: musical theory really points you in the direction that you should look to do and what you shouldn't do.

CATHI: Like tone?

JOE: One of the real folklore-like things - I feel pretty comfortable using the word "folklore” because it sort of is this old wives' tale. There may be some truth in the whole thing, but it's gotten really diluted and distorted as it's come down from generation to generation - is the whole idea of tone.

    I found that the best description, the most general description for tone, as applied to playing harmonica, is the ability of the player to make a small harmonica sound bigger - precisely that. How can you get maximum sound out of the harmonica and still be musical? And then I sort of analyzed and dissected and studied and pretty much found that it was narrowed down into - at this point - three categories which were: melodic tone, which is the player's ability to make one single note resonate in a warmer sound. harmonic tone, which is the illusion that a player creates of a bigger sound when he uses more than one note at the same time - a harmony note. Playing a single note and he's adding either an octave or some third or another note that creates the feel of more going on than actually…you sort of hear one note but you might hear more and you can't really define it.

CATHI: Chording?

JOE: Yeah, but depending on how good the player is, it can be more subtle than that. Like the idea of using octaves; you get two notes but you've got a big, thicker sound - something like that.

    And then the other was the percussive tone, which is the player's ability to use the tongue-blocking technique to create a percussive element in the individual note played. Little Walter and Big Walter Horton - classic players - are real good examples of that. And I sort of lumped it all together because I found that those were like "tricks" in some ways, that players use to get more sound out of the instrument. They fell loosely under the "tone” of the player.

    Generally if you don't consider these three things then you are left treating the harmonica as a melody instrument. And it's more than melodic. And a real, real important part of it that people don't really understand, in general, is that you can play more than one note. And when you can do that you have sounds available to you. You see, if you play one note, it's really difficult to make that little reed, that little harmonica, sound gigantic. But when you sue more than one note at the same time, you're creating a sound that's more aggressive.

CATHI: So when you're teaching someone you have to help them imagine what that is and what it feels like for them to be able to do it?

JOE: Well, it seems like in the last number of years - the last couple of years - things have started to change for the harmonica. Information is becoming more accessible. And of course I'm working with players and trying to help create an instrument that will challenge them more. I mean Howard Levy's a perfect example. The stuff he is doing defies actual description, it's so phenomenal. And of course I'm now definitely a big part of that from working with him, closely, and trying to find something - a way to make an instrument that will enable him to play better!

CATHI: Ah…this is a whole new thing. So you actually get with players; suss out the way they play; and apply that to what you know about the instrument itself so you can make it more conducive to their style?

JOE: Oh yeah, I've done some stuff, in varying degrees, a lot of consultation with Charlie Musselwhite, Corky Segal. He actually - I was very honored - he actually wrote a song about….

CATHI: What's the name of the song? Do you remember?

JOE: (Laughs.)

CATHI: Filisko's Blues or something? (Laughs.)

JOE: Filisko's Dream it's called.

CATHI: (Laughs.) OKAY!!!

JOE: (Acts offended)…what are you trying to say?!?

CATHI: (Laughter.)

JOE: Lately I've been doing a lot with Kim Wilson. Pretty unanimously people kind of think of him as the modern-day Little Walter. He's the forerunner of what's going on. And he certainly is in the best situation to educate and expose people to the harmonica. He's got the T-Birds, which is the sort of pop thing, and then he's doing his blues stuff. So I've been working pretty much on all his harmonicas too. People are realizing that harmonica is an instrument and are starting to do a double-take on it.

CATHI: As opposed to a "child's toy” as we always used to tease Gary (Primich)? (Laughs.)

 JOE: Right!  And it's a real low blow!…real dirty!  Cheap shot! But well deserved (laughter)! It's a very well deserved title, because you find a lot of people that really just sort of have a little bit of energy, a little bit of an idea of some of the nuances - some of the easy things that you can do with a blues harmonica, and they go out and play, with little-to-no skill.

CATHI: Yeah, It's enough of a novelty that you can get away with murder.

JOE: You definitely can! I realize that. You definitely can.

CATHI: When people ask you for help with their harmonicas, do you do a specific thing for THAT person, or are you just kind of developing a Filisko harmonica?

JOE: I try to be pretty open-minded and . . . There's a big difference between a harmonica that somebody wants to use as a melody instrument to the degree that Howard Levy is - where he's treating a diatonic harmonica as a chromatic harmonica. He's treating it where he's getting all the notes. There's a real big difference between when I put something together like that, and when I put a harmonica together for somebody like Gary (Primich) who plays Chicago blues - to best describe it. There's a big, big difference in the way the two harps are put together.

CATHI: Cool. So you're really kind of a scientist - an inventor in that way?

JOE: Well I'm learning a lot myself. I must say that I was talking about the mystery of blues and the harmonica in general. It just sort of overwhelmed me; I really found myself being swept away with the ability to control these unknown factors . . .

CATHI: (Laughs) He confesses!

JOE: Well…! I worked very hard - very hard, at studying different styles, playing and finding out stuff.  Like I believe for the most part that I understand the nuances of what Little Walter did. Of course I build harmonicas for Howard so I really know…that's like a new direction of harmonica. So I know what it takes to make a harmonica work that way. In that respect I'm pretty diverse, but I still love to just play the harmonica…(plays "She'll be Comin' 'Round the Mountain”).

CATHI: (Laughs.)

JOE: That's beautiful!!  I love that!! Who else can do that...on any other instrument...you know? Right out of your pocket! It's just such a wonderful thing!

CATHI: I notice a lot of the players here (at the Buckeye Harmonica Festival) favor chromatic. Is that an age-group thing?

JOE: Oh, that's very easy to answer. The heyday of the harmonica was during the depression. The vaudeville harmonica acts all the way up, which I believe - I could be wrong, but the harmonica trios evolved from the vaudeville, big-band harmonica. Like the Harmonicats - they evolved out of that. And I think probably the best way to understand it is because of the inexpensive nature of the harmonica, that where people didn't have any money they could get harmonicas. So you had this generation that grew up during that time where there was no money. They just fell in love; that was their instrument.

    Well, once WWII came and there were jobs, if the harmonica is going to represent the depression, then it is kind of associated with that, and you didn't want it anymore, In a lot of ways the attitude changed. The bands, the harmonica groups that were playing during the depression and afterwards were primarily using chromatic harmonicas. They perceived it (diatonic) as an imperfect instrument. But it's the flaws that end up being the strengths of it.

    Probably a good way to think of it is it's a pretty easy instrument to play, but it's the hardest thing in the world if you really want to play it well. And people are still sort of finding out crazy things that you can do with it. A lot of it is keyed to the fact that there are missing notes that require a good deal of skill to achieve. And simply the fact that you can't see what you're doing. It requires a lot of focus and imagination to feel out what it is you're doing.

 CATHI: So you play and work on harmonicas for a living?

JOE: Well…(squirms)…

 CATHI: (Laughter)

JOE: I didn't sit down one day and say "I'm going to make harmonicas for a living.” This is something that continually shows itself. It's pulling me along; it's got a life of its own and it's dragging me into it! I really wanted to learn how to become a better player. That was really where it was at, and my approach was very simply to locate the players that I thought were doing something special and get to know ‘em.

CATHI: Yes, it seems whatever I do for a living, music continues to drag me along.

JOE: Well, it's a DARNED good thing!

CATHI: (Laughter). I don't know. Well, like you say, it's no longer a choice; it hasn't been for a long time. The whole life has pulled me along.

JOE: Yeah, probably the way I'd put it is that my general enthusiasm and curiosity about the instrument has kept me pushing forward and trying to study players' styles. I'm a learning addict is really where the truth lies. I really seem to have an endless curiosity for the way things work. So that fuels me and it just sort of snowballed. The more I would study one style; the more I was able to gain the attentions of other players doing other styles; and vice versa.

CATHI: So you play the rest of the time?

JOE: I play as much as I can, which - it's a battle - of course if people want to perceive me as being this harmonica-builder-guy then I can't talk about my playing too much you know?

CATHI: Nonsense…you don't have to worry about how they perceive you.

JOE: But it's just my enthusiasm for the instrument and what it does and can do that keeps me moving on. And there's something about an eclectic group, an eclectic thing like the harmonica - like blues harmonica - that when you find somebody that really knows…. It doesn't have to be said; there are no words spoken. When somebody's got it, there's that "Oh…you too?!!?” (Laughter.) And it's funny…in a way a lot of these conventions are about that.

CATHI: Recognition?

JOE: It's a union of all the sickos you know?

CATHI: (laughter)

JOE: And nothing needs to be said. It's like "Oh yeah, you're sick too! It's wonderful to know you!”

     Probably no article I've written has been requested as often as one I did in 1996 on Joe Filisko, custom harmonica designer from Joliet, Illinois.  That didn't really surprise me because not only does Filisko do amazing things for the sound and build of a harmonica, but he's elusive about self-definition.  He squirms when you call him a custom harp designer, a musician, a writer, a recording artist, a communicator, a teacher, or any one of the things he does so well, because he's nervous about being "pigeonholed."  He's having too much fun exploring.  After repeated questions about what Joe was "up to" these days, I sat down to nail him on the subject without really "nailing" him.  Quite a trick. 

       I'll start out with the squirmy part.  Joe Filisko is a large figure in the world of harmonica for a variety of reasons, but the one that first called him to my attention was his abilities as a machinist and custom harmonica maker.  Custom made Filisko harps are ensconced in the gig bags of serious players all over the world.  Kim Wilson, Neil Young, Howard Levy, Peter "Madcat"Ruth, Phil Wiggins, and endless others can testify to his innovative craftsmanship in tuning, building, and repairing harmonicas, but his skills extend far beyond that.  As a musician, he is a fluent guitarist and harmonica player, presently working in the Carl Davis blues band and in a folk duo with long-time partner, Anita Miller.  As a teacher at numerous conventions, workshops, and festivals, as well as at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago, Filisko has the rare ability to communicate the techniques and joy of playing, whether his listeners be of beginning or advanced abilities.  His zeal for teaching is matched by his determination to learn.  He is a relentless researcher, which has recently led to the recent completion of his "Complete Discography of Walter Horton"and a compelling article on the history of harmonica/train sounds.  As a person I admire his determination to learn, his generosity, loyalty, and the sense he gives everyone that they are the most important subject at hand.  Now if that hasn't made him squirm, I'll let his own words do the rest!

 CATHI: How do you approach playing the harp in your blues band or duo?

 JOE:  There are certain songs on which I like to just completely "wing" it and do whatever the moment calls for, but I guess I frown on players that don't think of themselves as ensemble players.  They feel they need to improvise everything.  The great thing about improvising is that you can be in the moment and do what's appropriate, that's where the real magic happens.  The down side is when you fall on your face you blast the teeth out of your mouth (laughs)!  What I hear is that most players think the harmonica is to be played like Little Walter, Big Walter, Sonnyboy, or George Smith and if the song doesn't call for that type of sound, they don't play at all.  When I play, I'm thinking of the harmonica as an instrument that's capable of doing certain things and I'm trying to get that sound out.  I try to do justice to the song and make sure what I'm doing is drawing attention to the song and not me.  If I can make the song better and show off, then great!  (Laughter.)

 CATHI:  Do you worry about audience reaction?

 JOE:  I have learned to protect what's sacred to me by not having expectations.  I am, in a sense, a very selfish performer because I really just try to entertain myself.  I have a short attention span.  That's why I do a broad variety of stuff.  I always wonder how I can become more bizarre with what I'm doing with this instrument.  I need to keep it interesting for myself and I think that's what an audience can appreciate too.  It's not about being perfect, because I have fully accepted that it's not going to be even remotely perfect, but it has to have a sense of magic; it has to fit; and have a sense of unity.

 CATHI:  Tell me how you got started on music Joe.

 JOE:  When I was going to Junior College I found out I could actually study guitar as part of the program.  I was already enrolled in the machine tool program, studying metalworking.  Nothing stirred me more than the guitar in music, and the actual part of playing the guitar-putting my hands on it; strumming and moving my fingers-was addicting!  When I found out I could study it, I was blown away.  So I got involved in lessons.  The guitar instructors, Jeff Jaskowiak (who is now one of my closest friends), got me doing cool stuff, eventually jazz.  Then I literally got to the point where I said, "If this is what it takes for me to improvise, I can't do it; I quit."  I realized I just wasn't fit to climb that mountain then.  It was too big for me, but I think Jeff had me pegged right away as a working fool (laughs), and so he put together a guitar ensemble.

 CATHI:  An ensemble?

 JOE:  Yes, at one point there were at least a dozen guitarists.  It was the "Joliet Junior College Wolf Pack Guitar Ensemble" (laughs).  The important thing here is he said, "What songs do you want to do?"and we did them--songs he wrote, some by Bach, Mozart, and even a Satriani tune…a big variety.  Jeff and I transcribed a bunch of things and I wrote out all the guitar parts by hand.  I would have been excited to do one show, but Jeff is a big dreamer.  I appreciate guys that dream big and yet go about trying to do something for you.  He arranged a full week of shows playing to screaming (with pleasure!-laughs) high school students.  I was so blown away because I never imagined I could have a big dream and exceed beyond that!  We played for about three years and had a full-page write up in my Bible-Guitar Player Magazine.  I can't begin to tell you how that changed my whole attitude about EVERYTHING, because it made me realize you can do anything you want if you just DO it!  It blew my mind and contributed to my being fearless and probably aggressive in terms of my harmonica playing.  I really learned to say, "What's the worst that can happen?"  Well, the worst is that I fall on my face and make an idiot out of myself, and I already know I'm an idiot anyway, so what's the big deal?  It's incredibly freeing.  I learned not to take myself seriously, yet be so serious that I scare myself!  (Laughs.)

 CATHI:  Wow…how'd you get to be a harp-building wizard?

 JOE:  (Laughs).  Well, the story is that I'd been making these very interesting, beautiful-looking harmonicas and a buddy took pictures of them.  He had connections at the local newspaper and soon they called me for a story. 

 CATHI:  And then every harmonica player read that and called you?

 JOE:  No (laughter), it gets way worse.  Within a couple of days the AP sent down a photographer and interviewed me.  They ran a nationwide story and I got letters from as far away as Guam!

 CATHI: What did they want to know – how to build harps?

 JOE:  Well, inquiring…you know.  You've got to remember I was well warned:  if you want to make a living, don't try it doing harmonica work, and I believed it.  So I thought, "Well, I'm not trying to make a living; I'm just trying to work and figure out what's up."I thought I could supplement with other work.  But soon Channel 7 News did a story and then the Chicago Sun Times, and I got BOMBED with all this attention.

 CATHI: Did it go to your head?

 JOE:  Well, I've always been who I am.  I wasn't going to let anybody tell me what I was doing was great because to me it always had faults.  A good example is that definitely for years players fantasized about having older pre-War harmonicas because they played better than new harps at that period in time.  So naturally it seemed smart, if I was going to make or modify anything, to have my harps be at least as good as the ones those people coveted.  I feel confident that I've surpassed that point long ago.

 CATHI:  No doubt (laughs).

 JOE:  But all that attention meant I needed to get it together and really start understanding the way this thing worked.  So that's what happened.  And at the same time I started teaching at the Old Town School of Folk Music.  I always wanted to teach, so I went up and played for them and they could see that I was not lacking in sincerity or enthusiasm.  It's been a big blessing for me.  Pretty soon I was working at conventions and festivals, and I really work hard at preparing for them.

 CATHI: I know you're about to go to Germany to the "World Harmonica Festival"this fall too huh?  Are you excited?

 JOE:  Yes.  I'm not going to hold back or deny a musical opportunity.  I've been fearless, but simultaneously I do major maintenance on my ego and try to raise the musical bar on myself.  I don't know if excited is the right word.  You know what it is?  I look around and see things that need to be done, or that they can be done in a better way.  Nobody seems to be volunteering, so I just do it and hope and pray that someone better comes around and does it so I don't have to do it, but just hang around and soak it in (laughs). 

 CATHI:  So you feel a responsibility to do such things - like your Discography?

 JOE:  I don't know if it's a responsibility.  It's just that I have a hard time respecting people that sit back and criticize when they don't do anything.  I like to be able to walk the walk and get something done rather than just talk about it.  So going to Germany is going to be a great experience and a good time, but a lot of work!  I'll be DESTROYED when I get back, but I like being in the midst of things and counted as a "doer,"so I'm there!

 CATHI: How do you prepare for festival workshops or seminars?  Tab things?

 JOE:  No.  I might have some tab, but I've learned how to conduct something more interesting without tabs.  I try to be extremely open-minded, so I can turn on a dime and say, "Oh, this ain't workin'-we'll go to plan B,"and not let it rattle me.  It's important for me to just be in tune and be flexible.  The easy way to do it is to have questions, but to questions alone is sort of representative of not preparing something.  Mostly why they want me there I think (laughs) is to teach the world how to replicate the harmonicas I do, and that can be frustrating.

 CATHI: You said before it's hard because they need to do three things to prepare? 

 JOE:  The three most important things are learn how to replace reeds, adjust the reed, and tune the instrument.  That's 90% of the ordeal right there.

 CATHI: So they have to feel accomplished at that before you can teach anything?

 JOE:  Well, it's just the unspoken, but instantly known, thing about their dedication.  Are you going to take the time to teach somebody how to play some of your more fancy guitar stuff if they never bothered to learn how to tune?  This is work I do seven days a week, and I have invested an insane amount of time and money in my experience and education, so if somebody's not going to take those first steps it's sort of obvious that it's a pointless waste of time to get into it.

 CATHI:  Well, you're very good at teaching.  Is that what you're "into"these days?

 JOE:  What I'm into is learning.  I want to be in a situation where I'm learning and having fun.  Such a huge, huge part of where I am today is a result of me taking the time to study, break down, and learn the nuances of different playing styles.  That's been the biggest part of where I'm at.  I took the time to really learn those styles-the Chicago Blues style and its many facets, the Nashville country thing, the more jazz-world music thing, where you're playing harmonica and treating it more as a chromatic instrument, and so on-and was able to communicate with the players that think this is what they are looking for.

 CATHI:  How do you LEARN a piece of music and then communicate it?

 JOE:  A lot of work and patience…total listening.  There are very few visual cues available.  It's a lot like magic.  One of my regrets is I didn't put any energy into studying magic-it's beautiful.  It's a lot like harp.

 CATHI:  Because?

 JOE:  I'm thinking of it in terms of the time that goes into preparing for a little trick.  The ability of a magician to take a coin, make it appear, throw it out there, and disappear.  Tremendous preparation goes into that.  It's a visual thing, but probably more impressive if you could watch from behind and see what's going on.  The harmonica is like that.  There's so much going on internally in the mouth and throat, with breathing, that it can be very complex, and that really fascinates me-probably because I'm such a visual, hand-eye coordination junkie (laughter).  But it's a matter of listening and figuring out what the possible ways are that it can be done.  The second part is learning how to play it.  Then, when you have it down, you give it one of these brutally honest sessions.  "How does mine compare?"  If it's not happening, something isn't right yet.  That's not for the sense of duplication, but just learning a different way of doing it.  There's a huge school of thought that you should do your own thing and not copy anybody else.  That's fine, and I'm not going to make any stand on that, but the thing I find extremely interesting and satisfying is thinking of it as history-trying to break down and understand what's been done before.  Again, it comes down to really appreciating people who take the time to study and research.  I feel that's extremely important.  What impresses me 99.99% of the time is musicians that learned to play by the rules before they decided to break them.

 CATHI:  Lots of people say that the most valuable learning tool is to really hear someone-be right in their face when they play.

 JOE:  ABSOLUTELY!  I took advantage of that because I had a business that allowed me to get to know people, sit down, and analyze their playing so I could make better harmonicas.

 CATHI: So when someone comes to get their harp fixed, you talk to them, observe their style, and try to suss out what ways the harp can be improved according to what styles they want to try?  Or is this a student-teacher thing?

 JOE:  Hmmm, well, you could use the word "student,"and certainly for people paying me for instruction it is.  But a lot of times I just have such a collection of various techniques and styles, tremolos and vibratos, hand things and different ways to explain tone and note bending, that I'm able to make suggestions.  I am immensely into teaching; I think education is the answer.  That's where it's at for me.  Many times I figure things out in a backwards way; it's me figuring it out and then backtracking, dissecting it backwards very slowly.  Then it comes down to coming up with a language that we both understand that gives a direction.

 CATHI: Could you do it verbally, or do you have to show it on the harp?

JOE:  It would be a combination (laughs).  The best-case scenario is you play, me comment, me play, me comment and point out, and then you play again.  Then it's a matter of saying, "a little more of this, a little more of that"-that sort of thing.  That's the best way to communicate because we're dealing with the problem.  If we were just going to communicate through words, it's difficult because I don't totally know what you mean when you use a word in a certain way.  This is a great problem with the instrument in general.  Players say: "This note is sticky,"and I'll say, "What's ‘sticky' mean?  Too quick, too slow; it feels unresponsive?"  I'm always trying to define.  I have to be able to understand and break it down into something everybody can understand.

 CATHI: A communication freak huh?  (Laughs.)

 JOE:  Yeah…mostly because I don't like to be misunderstood and I want so BAD to know what you think!  (Laughter)

 CATHI:  Well, I know you're teaching, you still build great harps, you're playing with the Carl Davis blues band and continuing your folk duo with Anita Miller-even doing some recording, but what are your goals, Joe?

 JOE:  (Laughter)  You're making me squirm…you little brat!  Being involved in music to the greatest extent I can is definitely one of them.  I'm trying, in terms of employment and finances, to have the maximum amount of jobs secured so that as long as my hands and eyes are functional, you know, and I can sit down and come up with a product and make it work.  I want to learn and I don't want to be made to feel like I HAVE to do something.  I appreciate the freedom of doing different things.  I have invested an insane amount of time into doing this.  I'm just trying to keep life interesting, be happy (which I am), and try to create win-win situations between myself and whoever I run into.  It's humbling and scary sometimes that people get so excited about the custom harps I do.  I mean I can tell you some scary stories….

 CATHI: (Laughs.)  Well, they're holy relics to some.

 JOE:  Yeah, and I can't believe…I'm just trying to make some money!

 CATHI:  Well, it's like a doctor or a specialist:  if you don't know how he does the cure, you're in awe.

 JOE:  (Laughs.)  And then he kills ya!